paskal
07-18 08:38 PM
Hi Paskal,
We dont have any official source of available visas for EB2 India as of now.
But based on the information availale it seems there would be about 30k visas, which are about 10 times more than what its been now (3,267 VISAS for EB2 India), available for EB2 India. Even though China shares with us for these visas, it would be minimal for china sharing as because china had already a cutoff date of Jan 2006 by Jul 2007. EB2 India has to be current pretty soon as of the increase in visa numbers allotment to almost about 10 times due to the horizontal fallout.
We need your inputs as well, on this calculation of estimated visas for EB2 India.
.................................................. ...
Originally Posted by sumagiri :
There are some significant flaws in your analysis. If you correct them, the number comes to around 25K.
First. The family spill over has to be applied to all categories. So the total number is 140,000 + 19,000.
Second. You calculated EB1/2/3 gets 1/3 which is not correct. They use only 28.6% not 33.3% This makes difference.
Third. The EB1+EB2 combined 70K already counted 9,800 visas for India. We should not add them again.
According to USCIS/DOS testimonies they will usually end up using only 95% of total quota. They go conservatively because they must ensure that they won't use up even a single visa more than what law allows.So total available is approximately 159000*.95 = 151050
Third. EB1, EB2, EB3 each will get 28.6%. Not one third (33.3%). That makes lot of difference. So each category will get around 43,200.
EB4 and EB5 combined will get around 21,449
Now again, going by statistics and your assumptions that EB1 and EB2 takes up 70K and EB4, EB5 takes up around 10K. The unused visas are
((43,200*2)+21,449) - (70,000+10000) = 27849.
So the total EB2 visa usage will be around 70K + 25K =95K.
http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20167&highlight=vdlrao&page=7
but the spillover is done quarterly per USCIS.
we do not know how much of the stimated 20K (for India, assuming the erst is China) is already used up, assuming this is the total number if unused GC for the year.
We dont have any official source of available visas for EB2 India as of now.
But based on the information availale it seems there would be about 30k visas, which are about 10 times more than what its been now (3,267 VISAS for EB2 India), available for EB2 India. Even though China shares with us for these visas, it would be minimal for china sharing as because china had already a cutoff date of Jan 2006 by Jul 2007. EB2 India has to be current pretty soon as of the increase in visa numbers allotment to almost about 10 times due to the horizontal fallout.
We need your inputs as well, on this calculation of estimated visas for EB2 India.
.................................................. ...
Originally Posted by sumagiri :
There are some significant flaws in your analysis. If you correct them, the number comes to around 25K.
First. The family spill over has to be applied to all categories. So the total number is 140,000 + 19,000.
Second. You calculated EB1/2/3 gets 1/3 which is not correct. They use only 28.6% not 33.3% This makes difference.
Third. The EB1+EB2 combined 70K already counted 9,800 visas for India. We should not add them again.
According to USCIS/DOS testimonies they will usually end up using only 95% of total quota. They go conservatively because they must ensure that they won't use up even a single visa more than what law allows.So total available is approximately 159000*.95 = 151050
Third. EB1, EB2, EB3 each will get 28.6%. Not one third (33.3%). That makes lot of difference. So each category will get around 43,200.
EB4 and EB5 combined will get around 21,449
Now again, going by statistics and your assumptions that EB1 and EB2 takes up 70K and EB4, EB5 takes up around 10K. The unused visas are
((43,200*2)+21,449) - (70,000+10000) = 27849.
So the total EB2 visa usage will be around 70K + 25K =95K.
http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20167&highlight=vdlrao&page=7
but the spillover is done quarterly per USCIS.
we do not know how much of the stimated 20K (for India, assuming the erst is China) is already used up, assuming this is the total number if unused GC for the year.
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gcny2006
05-28 11:58 PM
Can someone tell me if this is right?
- Total number of EB-2 visas = 40,000
- 7% of 40,000 are allocated for India = 2,800
- Number of EB-2 I I-485 apps pending = 30,000
So if there is no spillover from other categories it will take north of 10 years for all the people who applied for I-485 in the July 2007 fiasco to get Green Cards. The only caveat to this would be attrition or legislation.
WRONG
Mr. Oppenheim has set the cutoff date for EB2 India at January 1, 2000. According to current estimates, out of the approximately 200,000 I-485 applications currently pending with USCIS, 120,000 of them are chargeable to India, with the cases divided evenly between EB2 and EB3. This means that EB2 and EB3 India applicants count for 60 percent of the I-485 cases currently pending with the USCIS.
- Number of EB-2 I I-485 apps pending = 60,000
so with no trickle it will be 20+ years
- Total number of EB-2 visas = 40,000
- 7% of 40,000 are allocated for India = 2,800
- Number of EB-2 I I-485 apps pending = 30,000
So if there is no spillover from other categories it will take north of 10 years for all the people who applied for I-485 in the July 2007 fiasco to get Green Cards. The only caveat to this would be attrition or legislation.
WRONG
Mr. Oppenheim has set the cutoff date for EB2 India at January 1, 2000. According to current estimates, out of the approximately 200,000 I-485 applications currently pending with USCIS, 120,000 of them are chargeable to India, with the cases divided evenly between EB2 and EB3. This means that EB2 and EB3 India applicants count for 60 percent of the I-485 cases currently pending with the USCIS.
- Number of EB-2 I I-485 apps pending = 60,000
so with no trickle it will be 20+ years
snathan
05-01 11:29 PM
friends lets not fight and over estimate ourselves ..we cannot do anything to solve or highlight our own issues ..then how can we do anything about something happening far away !!!
that being said ..both sides are to be blamed ..SL and Tamil leaders in SL.
SL because they treated tamils as second class citizens even though they were born in SL ..and tamil leaders because they did not accept peace offers / try to give up violence ..
and don't compare this to kashmir ..Kashmiris (except the pandits) are not second class ..they have super / very high class status .
as for congress party (India) ..it is the biggest villian ..why did it send army to SL ..Rajiv Gandhi should have sent his relatives first
We are not fighting here for the LTTE or SL. We are not happy to see how our incumbant Indian govt is. This is the same fate we/our generation going to face in the future whatever may be the reason.
Somewhere in the world when one jew is getting killed how the ISREAL govt is reacting. They never mind to go after those guys. But we are unfortunate not to have such govt.
Well..I wont post anything in this thread anymore.
that being said ..both sides are to be blamed ..SL and Tamil leaders in SL.
SL because they treated tamils as second class citizens even though they were born in SL ..and tamil leaders because they did not accept peace offers / try to give up violence ..
and don't compare this to kashmir ..Kashmiris (except the pandits) are not second class ..they have super / very high class status .
as for congress party (India) ..it is the biggest villian ..why did it send army to SL ..Rajiv Gandhi should have sent his relatives first
We are not fighting here for the LTTE or SL. We are not happy to see how our incumbant Indian govt is. This is the same fate we/our generation going to face in the future whatever may be the reason.
Somewhere in the world when one jew is getting killed how the ISREAL govt is reacting. They never mind to go after those guys. But we are unfortunate not to have such govt.
Well..I wont post anything in this thread anymore.
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sunny1000
06-28 08:22 PM
I suggest that you do this: Send the URL from AILA's memo about what happened to EB3-other worker category in June. And copy your HR and senior folks of your company when you email lawyer. That will tend to focus the attention of your lawfirm and they will either have to say "We will file asap" or they will have to say "AILA's memo doesnt mean anything".
I bet they will come back with the former conclusion.
Apparently, these lawyers have been too conditioned to work 30 hours per week and now, having to work 60 hours per week is too tough. NEWSFLASH LAWYERS : We idiots in IT and software very often work long hours to meet project deadlines. Its a part of life. Get used to it or like I said before, find something else to do. Like basket weaving or poetry writing so that you dont have to see deadlines and dont have to burn midnight oil.
The lawyers are like USCIS where you are a "case" and not a human being. So, their attitude is that "I will get to it when I get to it" with no sense of urgency even when someone's life hangs on it...this is what they call "customer service" :rolleyes:
I bet they will come back with the former conclusion.
Apparently, these lawyers have been too conditioned to work 30 hours per week and now, having to work 60 hours per week is too tough. NEWSFLASH LAWYERS : We idiots in IT and software very often work long hours to meet project deadlines. Its a part of life. Get used to it or like I said before, find something else to do. Like basket weaving or poetry writing so that you dont have to see deadlines and dont have to burn midnight oil.
The lawyers are like USCIS where you are a "case" and not a human being. So, their attitude is that "I will get to it when I get to it" with no sense of urgency even when someone's life hangs on it...this is what they call "customer service" :rolleyes:
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GC08
01-28 04:09 PM
:mad: They should stop the so called substitution.
gagbag
07-11 12:55 PM
http://www.ilw.com/articles/2007,0710-lee.shtm
more...
arunmohan
09-23 04:02 PM
are you sure that 5882 is dead ??? in that case, I agree lets do this on a major scale ...we don't have to say accurately how many people have not bought the house ...lets say 80% of legal high paying immigrants are not buying because they don't have a GC ..(I did not read the prev threads in detail ..but I guess we need to include everyone ..and not just those who have not yet taken the plunge ..as that is more realistic) ....
I would suggest to everyone to pass this information to your freinds too. We need to do it on massive way.
Sending an email is not going to create any problem just a 2-3 minutes job.
I am sending to all my 40-60 friends.
I would suggest to everyone to pass this information to your freinds too. We need to do it on massive way.
Sending an email is not going to create any problem just a 2-3 minutes job.
I am sending to all my 40-60 friends.
2010 Honda Accord 2003
Marphad
05-12 01:32 PM
Yes, I have seen this and more than enough LTTE sponsored propoganda web sites. This is nothing new. Just beware, do not believe everything you see. Do your own research and form your own opinion.
First fix your profile. You can't be heard if your credibility is under question.
First fix your profile. You can't be heard if your credibility is under question.
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krish2005
01-14 12:15 PM
To the poster of this thread.
Voted your thread as 5 stars given the severity. The info provided by you is so very critical to our survival as H1B in US.
Voted your thread as 5 stars given the severity. The info provided by you is so very critical to our survival as H1B in US.
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a.j.2048
03-27 12:46 PM
I wish India allows absentee ballot.
The way things are right now, as NRIs, we can't even register ourselves in the electoral rolls even if we want to plan a trip to India to conincide with election time.
You can register to vote as long as you have a permanent address in India, which is pretty much anyone except a US citizen. Voting itself is inconvenient as you have to travel to your constituency for that.
The way things are right now, as NRIs, we can't even register ourselves in the electoral rolls even if we want to plan a trip to India to conincide with election time.
You can register to vote as long as you have a permanent address in India, which is pretty much anyone except a US citizen. Voting itself is inconvenient as you have to travel to your constituency for that.
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sodh
11-10 01:55 AM
Just my thoughts its okay for companies to use preapproved labor of the enployees who are no more with them ,but what about employees who have worked with them for many years and when the time comes to file the employees I-140, either the the employee is layed off, or they file I-140 application with important documents missing resulting in RFE, no way of knowing whether your experience letters, your evaluation certificate with the evaluators credentials were ever submitted.(Ganda hai per dhanda hai ye).
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kumarc123
07-23 01:38 PM
According to my analysis based on recipted/pending I-485 they processed some 80-90K (estimated range) EB I-485 applications which 57/65% of 140k by April 2008.
May month usage was very low, i feel June/July not to bump too much so another 20k cases. We should still have FB rollover from 07 (31K) + another 10k visa in the pool for Aug/Sept visa.
I agree, I read all the posts and went through some figures myself, the indication is that dates for EB2 will move much faster that we had all anticipated in the past. I do somewhere agree with my friend vldrao that dates could retrogress for a small period of time (say 1 month), but eventually dates will become current soon.
Thanks:)
May month usage was very low, i feel June/July not to bump too much so another 20k cases. We should still have FB rollover from 07 (31K) + another 10k visa in the pool for Aug/Sept visa.
I agree, I read all the posts and went through some figures myself, the indication is that dates for EB2 will move much faster that we had all anticipated in the past. I do somewhere agree with my friend vldrao that dates could retrogress for a small period of time (say 1 month), but eventually dates will become current soon.
Thanks:)
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bayarea07
07-27 05:51 PM
Here is the story (in a free book format) of a big Shot (I believe he was emerald ) who went broke while doing amway (MUST READ BEFORE DOING AMWAY)
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~emerald/files/MerchantsOfDeception.pdf
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~emerald/files/MerchantsOfDeception.pdf
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Rb_newsletter
01-13 06:16 PM
GC is for future employment....this memo is only for H1B. Otherwise you can sue them.
haha I wonder if they understand that rule. If they did, then why are they asking for pay stubs for past 2 years?
haha I wonder if they understand that rule. If they did, then why are they asking for pay stubs for past 2 years?
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srikondoji
06-27 04:24 PM
I disagree. Christ still needs a passport and has to go through immigration check at port of entry to land in US. The easiest for HIM is to get an F-1 visa and then change to H1-B and apply a Green card.
Christ is god's son! He does not need a Green Card or any other color card :D So what is the point of making it 0?:p
Christ is god's son! He does not need a Green Card or any other color card :D So what is the point of making it 0?:p
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swo
07-13 10:46 AM
I have no doubt there is high literacy in parts of India. I mentioned Canada's literacy rate in response to a poster's reference to "illiterate Canadians". A poster, who ironically, in that same rant struggled to write a well phrased sentence.
I understand your point, but to me "A good place to live", DOES encompass "a good place to realize your ambitions". It's just a matter of what those ambitions are. Ambitions area not always 100% material. If your ambition is to enjoy a solid income by the ocean in good weather, Toronto cannot offer that. But if it is to create an IT fortune, Cairnes, Australia probably isn't the right place for you. "Good" is different for all of us.
The indexes mentioned are just a loose measuring stick that compare a bunch of safety, infrastructure, health, lifestyle and opportunity assessments and try to apply some metrics to them. All I'm saying is, there's good and bad everywhere, and Canada, always rates highly.
Like you however, I'm here because I like it here. Frankly, after Canada, the weather in California is too hard to give up :)
In the end, as you say, it's all objective.
I don't know much about Canada, but wanted to point out that the Indian state of Kerala also has one of the top literacy rates in the world. And an excellent healthcare system. (Apparently, the expected lifespan of a Keralite woman is longer than that of women in the developed world. And something like 94-95% of babies in Kerala are hospital delivered.) Also, Kerala pays unemployment benefits to educated-unemployed youth; much like Canada. (See wikipedia or google for sources and citations.) Yet, Kerala is certainly nowhere near the top of the list of desired immigration destinations; in fact, Kerala likely has the largest proportion of natives working outside the state.
"A good place to live" does not necessarily translate to "a good place to bring your ambitions to life." (E.g., Kerala also has one of the highest suicide rates.) That's my point.
Anyways, good luck to those who want to move to Canada. IV is all about helping us work on our legal immigration to the US. So I don't think this is the appropriate venue for those who want to go to Canada.
I understand your point, but to me "A good place to live", DOES encompass "a good place to realize your ambitions". It's just a matter of what those ambitions are. Ambitions area not always 100% material. If your ambition is to enjoy a solid income by the ocean in good weather, Toronto cannot offer that. But if it is to create an IT fortune, Cairnes, Australia probably isn't the right place for you. "Good" is different for all of us.
The indexes mentioned are just a loose measuring stick that compare a bunch of safety, infrastructure, health, lifestyle and opportunity assessments and try to apply some metrics to them. All I'm saying is, there's good and bad everywhere, and Canada, always rates highly.
Like you however, I'm here because I like it here. Frankly, after Canada, the weather in California is too hard to give up :)
In the end, as you say, it's all objective.
I don't know much about Canada, but wanted to point out that the Indian state of Kerala also has one of the top literacy rates in the world. And an excellent healthcare system. (Apparently, the expected lifespan of a Keralite woman is longer than that of women in the developed world. And something like 94-95% of babies in Kerala are hospital delivered.) Also, Kerala pays unemployment benefits to educated-unemployed youth; much like Canada. (See wikipedia or google for sources and citations.) Yet, Kerala is certainly nowhere near the top of the list of desired immigration destinations; in fact, Kerala likely has the largest proportion of natives working outside the state.
"A good place to live" does not necessarily translate to "a good place to bring your ambitions to life." (E.g., Kerala also has one of the highest suicide rates.) That's my point.
Anyways, good luck to those who want to move to Canada. IV is all about helping us work on our legal immigration to the US. So I don't think this is the appropriate venue for those who want to go to Canada.
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ramus
07-03 03:52 PM
Which congressman did you call?
Thanks.
I talked to someone & got immediate appointment. Few minutes later I got anoter call back to reaffirm teir support
Please call your congressman office. I am only asking them to ask USCIS to receive the application instead of rejecting it
Thanks.
I talked to someone & got immediate appointment. Few minutes later I got anoter call back to reaffirm teir support
Please call your congressman office. I am only asking them to ask USCIS to receive the application instead of rejecting it
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at0474
12-13 02:15 PM
"There is no "reservation", the nature of the clause is a cap, it does not give another country a minimum quota, it is written as a restrictive provision. and again- just because it benefits someone else does not make discrimination "right", in the strictest sense. right and wrong when it comes to discrimination are not relative. and if you believe they are, it's mighty slippery slope my friend because it does not take time to find yourself on the other side."
--You have decided to coin the country cap quota as discrimination. After you take that position, everything you said seem difficult to challenge. Yes, you are absolutely right that "rights and wrongs" are not relative when you are discriminating against someone. You are also spot on that discrimination cannot be justified because it benefits others.
"you sound suspiciously supportive of the caste system. i will say it again. such a system is wrong. i do not care which side of the fence you are on. was depriving blacks from voting wrong? or was it ok from the white side of the fence? please think before you post."
--Why bother assuming opponent's position? What system I support doesn't add a jot to what we are discussing here. Depriving blacks from voting and not giving a greencard to you (inline with a bangladeshi) doesn't seem to hold any water. Let alone whites being "ok" with it, when you walk down the street with a bangladeshi, I hardly suspect if they can even identify you by your nationality.
"please think before you post"
--Let me try!!Hmmmmm!!! Nah!! IMHO, We cannot call country cap for EB categories as discrimination. Is it reflecting discrepencies in its implementation? Sure...no system works to justify its underlying intent accurately. Nevertheless, an attempt is made. Hence we call it a process. Harping against USCIS that it is plain discrimination is not going to get us anywhere. As times change, they have to change the policies to suit the prevaling circumstances as well. In the long run, if every other immigrant is a bangladeshi, I am sure they will be taken out from the diversity lottery program.
--You have decided to coin the country cap quota as discrimination. After you take that position, everything you said seem difficult to challenge. Yes, you are absolutely right that "rights and wrongs" are not relative when you are discriminating against someone. You are also spot on that discrimination cannot be justified because it benefits others.
"you sound suspiciously supportive of the caste system. i will say it again. such a system is wrong. i do not care which side of the fence you are on. was depriving blacks from voting wrong? or was it ok from the white side of the fence? please think before you post."
--Why bother assuming opponent's position? What system I support doesn't add a jot to what we are discussing here. Depriving blacks from voting and not giving a greencard to you (inline with a bangladeshi) doesn't seem to hold any water. Let alone whites being "ok" with it, when you walk down the street with a bangladeshi, I hardly suspect if they can even identify you by your nationality.
"please think before you post"
--Let me try!!Hmmmmm!!! Nah!! IMHO, We cannot call country cap for EB categories as discrimination. Is it reflecting discrepencies in its implementation? Sure...no system works to justify its underlying intent accurately. Nevertheless, an attempt is made. Hence we call it a process. Harping against USCIS that it is plain discrimination is not going to get us anywhere. As times change, they have to change the policies to suit the prevaling circumstances as well. In the long run, if every other immigrant is a bangladeshi, I am sure they will be taken out from the diversity lottery program.
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JazzByTheBay
12-13 09:09 PM
Probably the best argument I've read all day, and your take on it makes a lot more sense - great for a sanity check! :)
cheers!
jazz
As you use the phrase Check Mate....
Chess is all about thinking strategically several moves ahead.
Given the current political climate on immigration I think that we will be in a check mate position (on the loosing end) if we pursue that road.
The anti's would be all over us as soon as we filed in federal district court probably even before a hearing, and definitely after a hearing. If we lost in lower courts the Supreme Court would probably refuse to hear the appeal, in the mean time we'd have just stirred up the anti's hornets nest against us, just as much if not worse than against the illegals.
Asking Congress to make small changes in the existing laws annoys the anti's. Telling them or forcing them to wholesale rewrite their laws would make us public enemy #1. We would be lucky to have more than a handful of law makers willing to stand up for us. It would kill off all lobbying ability.
Think of lobbying as polite negotiation.
Think of Supreme court case as picking a fist fight, in which we are badly out numbered.
Once you have started a fist fight it is much harder to negotiate, especially from a loosing position.
I would rather negotiate than fight, I would rather lobby than court challenge.
So yes, check mate, if we follow this route.
Alternatively, a British phase: Royally screwed!
cheers!
jazz
As you use the phrase Check Mate....
Chess is all about thinking strategically several moves ahead.
Given the current political climate on immigration I think that we will be in a check mate position (on the loosing end) if we pursue that road.
The anti's would be all over us as soon as we filed in federal district court probably even before a hearing, and definitely after a hearing. If we lost in lower courts the Supreme Court would probably refuse to hear the appeal, in the mean time we'd have just stirred up the anti's hornets nest against us, just as much if not worse than against the illegals.
Asking Congress to make small changes in the existing laws annoys the anti's. Telling them or forcing them to wholesale rewrite their laws would make us public enemy #1. We would be lucky to have more than a handful of law makers willing to stand up for us. It would kill off all lobbying ability.
Think of lobbying as polite negotiation.
Think of Supreme court case as picking a fist fight, in which we are badly out numbered.
Once you have started a fist fight it is much harder to negotiate, especially from a loosing position.
I would rather negotiate than fight, I would rather lobby than court challenge.
So yes, check mate, if we follow this route.
Alternatively, a British phase: Royally screwed!
hindu_king
05-29 02:53 PM
I think as someone said this guy was randomly throwing numbers out there. How come his analysis does not account for remaining 36K EB1 and EB2 ROW applications. Is he suggesting that all EB1 and EB2 ROW are being used up also. Very hard to believe that for 2008 and 2009 with the way the economy is going. Lot of product companies where most of the ROW 485s would likely come from have stopped applying perm since last summer. There is a huge flaw in this analysis and its not as pessimistic as it seems.
BUT, then again we need legislation to wipe the slate clean and clear these 200K applications, so there is a new build up of visa demand and wait times are tolerable for current applicants and future applicants.
What will happen to the 30k or so unused ROW EB1/EB2 numbers? Typically they trickle down to EB2 India in the last 3 months of FY. I still think this will happen in the next 3 months. Somehow USCIS overreacted and retrogressed EB2 India to 2000 and I think they are going to have to correct it to use all unused ROW numbers.
BUT, then again we need legislation to wipe the slate clean and clear these 200K applications, so there is a new build up of visa demand and wait times are tolerable for current applicants and future applicants.
What will happen to the 30k or so unused ROW EB1/EB2 numbers? Typically they trickle down to EB2 India in the last 3 months of FY. I still think this will happen in the next 3 months. Somehow USCIS overreacted and retrogressed EB2 India to 2000 and I think they are going to have to correct it to use all unused ROW numbers.
anai
06-27 12:48 PM
Three facts, followed by one interpretation.
First: several members (incl self) have checked with their own lawyers and these lawyers tend to agree with the common interpretation of validity for entire month. And at least some of these are lawyers with many years of practice.
Second: Fragomen, the largest immigration law firm, on its website mentions the mid-month possibility; so while there is no government source, the whole topic cannot be dismissed as an unfounded rumor.
Third: Macaca keeps cutting and pasting from the ombudsman's report in many different colors.
My interpretation:
The mid-month concept seems to be a matter of opinion. Multicolor posts notwithstanding, there's nothing official on this matter so far. (I emailed the state department seeking an answer; not surprisingly, I haven't heard back. If anyone else can get something from the horse's mouth, then post it here. If you can get stuff only from the other end of the horse, then maybe there's isn't much pointing in driving a general panic.)
First: several members (incl self) have checked with their own lawyers and these lawyers tend to agree with the common interpretation of validity for entire month. And at least some of these are lawyers with many years of practice.
Second: Fragomen, the largest immigration law firm, on its website mentions the mid-month possibility; so while there is no government source, the whole topic cannot be dismissed as an unfounded rumor.
Third: Macaca keeps cutting and pasting from the ombudsman's report in many different colors.
My interpretation:
The mid-month concept seems to be a matter of opinion. Multicolor posts notwithstanding, there's nothing official on this matter so far. (I emailed the state department seeking an answer; not surprisingly, I haven't heard back. If anyone else can get something from the horse's mouth, then post it here. If you can get stuff only from the other end of the horse, then maybe there's isn't much pointing in driving a general panic.)
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